Horwitz/Cercle - How Rush Touches Me

Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 01:39:24 GMT

sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz) wrote:

>FC asks:

>>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know. >

>Admittedly, this is hard to articulate, but I'll give it a shot. > I find >their music (and I mean the music first, the lyrics second) to be >enormously uplifting and optimistic. It has the same kind of Romanticism >that one finds in the classical music of the late 19th and early 20th >century - it speaks to me of an unlimited future full of grand >possibilities. When Geddy sings (in "Presentation"): "Just think what we >might do," it sums up everything that "touches" me about their music. >Even in their most "depressing" songs, there is always an optimistic ray >of sun that bursts through. The best example of this is my very favorite >Al solo in "Between the Wheels." It's an altogether gloomy song, but that >solo rescues it and restores the optimism and openness that one associates >with Rush.

Hmm. Interesting. I guess Rush's music just doesn't do that (or at least that extremely) for me. While you're saying, "Wow, this is optomistic," and feeling up-lifted, I'm saying, "Jesus, this is getting repetitive," and feeling lack of stimulation. It's cool that you get that out of it, though. I just don't think of Rush's music as that moving or emotionally descriptive--I think it's a bit more sterile for me.

>I've said it before in other Rush forums, but I think this is also why >many Rush fans are also Star Trek fans - they both contain the same >fundamentally optimistic and open view of human possibilities.

Well, I have to say it--Star Trek can be so extremely dopey with it's optimism. It comes off as being wishful thinking and ignoring some of the stuff that really goes on--it kind of polishes over things. I think a lot of the same things can be applied to Rush, as well. Give me the universe of William Gibson anyday. :)

>Whatever has happened in my life, their music has enabled me to celebrate >the good and survive the bad. No one completely understands why >particular sequences of notes and chords generate the emotional responses >they do, but in some way, music makes emotions more real than mere words >or pictures.

Yes, I agree. Music invokes emotions that really can't be explained, and that's why Rush is funny--so many times Rush fans talk about loving songs and then back their opinions up with technical information! "That solo and it's b-flat in the bridge rises to a crescendo with the alternate c and a pickings! Genius!" A big reason why Rush's music doesn't move me many times--player's music. Doesn't that mean, by definition, that it's main appeal is due to it's technical qualities? But to me, the sequences of notes and chords becomes a boring drone--sure, there are different sequences, but they're so much the same...

>They do indeed touch the heart. Neil has said that he >really likes when fans describe Rush's music as the "soundtrack of their >lives." I'm sure he does. In many ways, that captures how Rush has >touched me.

Hmm. I definitely wouldn't describe Rush as the soundtrack to my life (what the hell does that mean, anyway? My life *contains* the music! The music doesn't contain *me*!).

>And clearly I'm not alone. What I love most about Rush concerts these >days is watching other people enjoy themselves as much as I am.

I think I probably spend my time laughing at those people. :)

> I will >never forget the Albany show this tour, with many, many hard-core fans >there, and hearing the whole place singing along to Red Barchetta, CTTH, >and all of 2112. Everyone was smiling and I know many who cried during >2112. That's being touched.

That's corny. I'm sorry, but I think that Rush is definitely NOT the music to cry over. (That's what John Tesh is for. :) I mean, shit!--it's *2112*! It ain't a song about a dead little boy! It ain't a song about a wife with cancer! It's a song about some guy who finds a guitar, learns it super-quickly, gets it smashed, then kills himself!

>Spew your cynicism if you must Frank, but hear me out.

Many times, that's why I "spew my cynicism,"--I want to hear what everyone else feels about it, and I thank you for replying to my message.

> I read almost >everything you post and I respect your criticisms of the band. However, >I >think the reason that you get under people's skin (which I know is your >point of pride :) ),

*Moi*?!

> is your *cynicism* not your criticisms. The way in >which you poke fun at people who take Rush seriously and really are >touched by them probably is the most irksome thing one can do for fans >who >are looking for the kind of optimism, openness, and, yes, even innocence, >that Rush projects. Where love is concerned, cynicism goes over like a, >well, lead zeppelin.

What I'm cynical about is Rush fans' idea about love. If this is what you feel love is all about, I feel sorry for you. Should a rock band be taken that seriously? I find the fact that people look for all those things in a rock band like Rush kinda...well, pathetic.

My saying that true "love" doesn't exist in Rush's music does not mean I think love doesn't exist. I'm just saying you cheapen love by ascribing it to something like a goddamn rock band!

>Long-time, serious Rush fans are used to ignoring the critics who call >the >band pretentious etc.. We know what we like and we're proud of it. That >kind of public commitment to what one loves is out of step in the >cynical, >detached 90s, where flitting from interest to interest in the flicker of >an MTV second is the way to go, but being out of step didn't stop Rush >and >it won't stop Rush fans. The love-in shall continue!

That it will. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the matter, I appreciate it.

-FC

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band) Cecrle
From: geddylee99@aol.com (GeddyLee99)
Date: 14 Jul 1997 01:32:00 GMT

<How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

<-FC

it is hard to explain Frank, but im sorry it doesnt touch you like it does some of us. Some people get emotional walking through the Louvre, some dont. I get chills when i hear Beethovens Ninth, many others wouldnt. Im 30 and have been listening to the band for about 17 years, i heard MP at a friends house and went bonkers, i had been playing bass for a few years standard rock crap (Ozzy and such) i heard lees playing and had to gobble up everything they made.

For the first part of my Rush life, they touched me musically because they were different, fresh and skilled musicians. I spent many days and nights trying to emulate geddys technique and sound. I saved money like crazy to buy a rickenbacker (then he had to switch to Steinberger for GUP) that i still play today.

I hated the new stuff when it came out (GUP and beyond), because it was different musically and not what i had come to expect from the band. There were some great bass moments, but i felt that they had weakend somehow. I continued to buy the albums because i was hoping for a return to teh old days when something strange happened.

I closed my eyes one day as a 19 year old carefree college student jamming la villa with a garage band,,,,,,,and woke up the next day at 29, lousy marriage, working my ass off at a job i hate, big mortgage, house in the burbs and all that.....woooosh....everything was a blur and i missed it. Decided to see the T4E opener in Albany and got ready by digging out all the "crap" i hadnt listened to except when i bought it(HYF, Presto, PoW) and i was friggen amazed.......

There it was lyrically, my whole damn life in a nutshell, now im not suggesting Rush patterned their lyrics after me, what im saying is that no matter what i popped in, i could see something about myself or my life and usually in a little different light. Everything they sung had meaning, that period in Rush history is lyrically amazing, its not Descarte or Socrates and it doesnt proclaim to be, but it touches me in a way that nothing else can....La Villa gives me the chills just like Beethoven,

Open Secrets almost brings me to tears, Listen to War Paint when you get a little older and see what it means to you.

I was married for seven years, ive been in my current job for about 5 years, my house is 4 years old, my car is 3 years old, my best friend ive known for about 9 years, but Rush has been with me somehow or someway for at least 17 years, it is special as noted above and for reasons i cannot explain even when i try.

I think you or another poster mentioned that you were a teenager????if that is the case, wait some period of time, experience a few things, live and learn and love and feel loss and pain not as a know it all teenager, but as a humble and fragile adult and then revisit some of the bands work......it may touch you in a way you never dreamed possible.

My apologies to the group for the length of this thread, thank you for indulging.

Future posts will return to their normal sarcastic selves.

Ged

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band) Cecrle
From: "John A. & Marianne Sievers" <ytserush@sprintmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:25:03 -0700

Cecrle wrote:

> How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

> -FC

Well....It's a rare thing these days for a band to make you think. This one does. A lot of what they are about I've come up with independently on my own and listening to the lyrics reaffirms that I'm not the only one noticing what is going on around me. I refuse to accept the lowest common denominator. If I want shallow backround music, I'll put on the Killer Dwarfs. That's how it works for me. That's the way I am.

ytserush@sprintmail.com

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band) Cecrle
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 23:42:10 GMT
"John A. & Marianne Sievers" <ytserush@sprintmail.com> wrote: >

>Cecrle wrote:

>> >Well....It's a rare thing these days for a band to make you think.

>> They don't make me think all that much.

>That much is clear.

Oooh, subtle.

>> >I refuse to accept the lowest common >> >denominator.

>> What exactly do you mean by this? Isn't the fact that Rush appeals to >> alienated young men a lowest common denominator of sorts?

>It's more than just Rush. Do you like your intelligence being insulted?

That's an ironic question.

>Are you even aware it even is being insulted? Have you watched TV lately? >That should tell give you an indication of what the lowest common >denominator is. Perhaps I'm not explaining this very clearly.....

I hear what you're saying. You have to realize that the world is full of moronic assholes. You have to realize that Rush's fanbase is full of moronic assholes.

I also feel like my intelligence is being insulted when Neil tells me about "The Color of Right" and what I should do. See what I'm saying?

-FC

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band)
From: John Caballero <ediblened@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 14:30:53 GMT
In article <5qb3fk$vb3$1@nw003.infi.net> Cecrle, mcecrle@sbt.infi.net writes:

>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

This seems to be the $64,000 question. (And it has been answered quite nicely so far, I hope I can muster the same eloquence.)

Like several of the other people who have commented, I discovered Rush in the 1970s when I was a youngster. It was in about 1977 (I was 12), and at the time, I was just getting interested in music, so the first kind of music I heard when I turned on my radio in the little Texas town in which I grew up was D-D-D-Disco.

I thought it was pretty damn cool. (Hey, like I said, I was 12, and it sure beat kicker music!) One day I came home from school and my older brother was BLASTING out By-Tor and the Snowdog on the living room stereo. This was a LONG way from the Bee Gees, but I thought it was EXTREMELY cool! Being a 12 year old with an overactive imagination, I immediately clicked with the fantasy and science fiction themes of Rush's early songs.

For me, it was a combination of lyrics and music. The music was not like anything else I'd ever heard - it was full of passion and precision, angry, aggressive, intimidating (for my unenlightened friends, anyway), and POWERFUL. The lyrics, too, were not like anything I'd ever heard before. The combination of music and lyrics reached out to me like nothing else I've ever experienced. I attribute a lot of that to my youth - had I gotten into Rush at a later age, I doubt it would have had the same impact, but the fact of the matter is, I kind of grew up with Rush. Some of my current ideas about right and wrong can be traced back to Rush lyrics.

Neil has certainly introduced me to a wider reality.

The thing I found really cool about Rush back then was that I was able to share the lyrics (and sometimes, the music) with my mother (my parents had divorced). She was and is very much an intellectual and that was often the level on which we communicated, and the lyrics formed a bridge between the two of us - they were something we both were interested in discussing. I can't say she was overly fond of all the music (and hated "that voice"), but she could easily identify the musicianship of the band members as being a cut above anything else at the time.

As I said, I grew up in a small Texas town, and there wasn't much for me to do. The choices were get drunk, get stoned, or both. Neither of those appealed much to me, but in Neil's lyrics, the value individuality was very apparent, and having read and understood those lyrics, I found that

I was able to resist peer pressure with an ease which irritated my schoolmates. As I got older, in high school, I continued to find Neil's themes very relevant to what I was going through. Signals came out when I was a junior in high school, and Subdivisions seemed to have been a song written about me. Having alienated most of my schoolmates, I found that, indeed, I was the misfit to which Neil referred. (No doubt, thousands of other Rush fanatics felt the same way.) And so it continued throughout my 20s, and now into my 30s (I'm currently 32.)

Sharing Rush lyrics with people has always been important to me and when I met the woman who was to become my wife, I was very interested to hear what she thought of the band. She had never even heard of them before, and as she was 12 years my senior, I wasn't sure what she would think of them. I let her first read the lyrics to Time Stand Still. She was thunderstruck - she said the lyrics exactly reflected what she'd been feeling. I then played the song for her and she loved it. Over the next few months I was able to relive many of my first Rush experiences through her eyes, and this became a very powerful bond between us. Since we've met, she's never missed a Rush concert (she even went to listen to the tribute band with me), she has eagerly awaited the release of each new album, and was glued to the TV when I brought home the Work in Progress videos. We still enjoy staying up late at night discussing the lyrics or just listening to the music.

Yeah, Rush has had a profound effect on my life. ----------------------

John Caballero

ediblened@mail.utexas.edu http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~john/

Article title found in a popular PC magazine: "Plug and Play - How to Make It Work"

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band)
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 18:27:45 GMT

John Caballero <ediblened@mail.utexas.edu> wrote:

>In article <5qb3fk$vb3$1@nw003.infi.net> Cecrle, mcecrle@sbt.infi.net >writes:

>>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

[much snipped about how John identified with Rush as a young'un]

I see what you mean, John. You know, that's a lot like how I began liking Rush. I was in 7th or 8th grade, and I hated school and the people there. Everyone liked (c)rap and all that type of shit, and it was so horrible to have all those things be the "cool", accepted things that you were expected to like. So when my uncle introduced me to Rush, it was a pleasant surprise and change of pace. I didn't love them immediately, but it all grew on me. I thought Peart's lyrics were cool as hell--after being drenched in all that gangsta rap and shit from school and everywhere, they really stood out.

But soon that novelty wears off. You find that there's a *bunch* of other music out there that is different from what all the kids at school consider cool.

The bandmembers of Rush are not my soul-mates. They don't "feel the things I feel" to any special extent. They're humans, too--and in fact, Peart's lyrics can be alienating sometimes.

>The thing I found really cool about Rush back then was that I was able to >share the lyrics (and sometimes, the music) with my mother (my parents >had divorced). She was and is very much an intellectual and that was >often the level on which we communicated, and the lyrics formed a bridge >between the two of us - they were something we both were interested in >discussing. I can't say she was overly fond of all the music (and hated >"that voice"), but she could easily identify the musicianship of the band >members as being a cut above anything else at the time.

>As I said, I grew up in a small Texas town, and there wasn't much for me >to do. The choices were get drunk, get stoned, or both. Neither of those >appealed much to me, but in Neil's lyrics, the value individuality was >very apparent, and having read and understood those lyrics, I found that >I was able to resist peer pressure with an ease which irritated my >schoolmates.

>As I got older, in high school, I continued to find Neil's themes very >relevant to what I was going through. Signals came out when I was a >junior in high school, and Subdivisions seemed to have been a song >written about me. Having alienated most of my schoolmates, I found that, >indeed, I was the misfit to which Neil referred. (No doubt, thousands of >other Rush fanatics felt the same way.)

>And so it continued throughout my 20s, and now into my 30s (I'm currently >32.)

>Sharing Rush lyrics with people has always been important to me and when >I met the woman who was to become my wife, I was very interested to hear >what she thought of the band. She had never even heard of them before, >and as she was 12 years my senior, I wasn't sure what she would think of >them. I let her first read the lyrics to Time Stand Still. She was >thunderstruck - she said the lyrics exactly reflected what she'd been >feeling. I then played the song for her and she loved it. Over the next >few months I was able to relive many of my first Rush experiences through >her eyes, and this became a very powerful bond between us. Since we've >met, she's never missed a Rush concert (she even went to listen to the >tribute band with me), she has eagerly awaited the release of each new >album, and was glued to the TV when I brought home the Work in Progress >videos. We still enjoy staying up late at night discussing the lyrics or >just listening to the music.

>Yeah, Rush has had a profound effect on my life.

Seems the main appeal of Rush is to the young and alienated. That's how it worked for me at first, but (although I'm only 16) I think it's worn off or softened by now.

They don't make me feel great or "Wow, I'm not the only one!" I think alienation goes deeper than anything Rush can fix.

-FC

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Subject: Re: 2112 (tribute band)
From: John Caballero <EdibleNed@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: 15 Jul 1997 04:22:53 GMT

In article <5qdr31$1i8$1@nw001.infi.net> Cecrle, mcecrle@sbt.infi.net writes:

>But soon that novelty wears off. You find that there's a *bunch* of other >music out there that is different from what all the kids at school >consider cool.

Indeed I have. But having found those other bands has not changed my appreciation for Rush. Yes, that intense feeling of connectedness which I (and apparently you) felt for Rush at one time has indeed faded somewhat, but it has been replaced by a different level of appreciation and understanding.

>The bandmembers of Rush are not my soul-mates.

Nor are they anyone's.

>They don't "feel the things I feel" to any special extent. They're humans, too--and in fact, >Peart's lyrics can be alienating sometimes.

Not so for me. Not all his lyrics have the same effect on me, but they all get me to think about what Neil's trying to say. Sometimes I come away thinking, "he wasn't trying to say much there," and sometimes (even years later) I will go back and re-read that same lyric and realize that I previously wasn't aware of an entire level of meaning.

>>Yeah, Rush has had a profound effect on my life.

>Seems the main appeal of Rush is to the young and alienated.

You mean the initial appeal?

The main appeal of Rush for me now is not attributed to my youth (as compared to when I was a teenager), nor to any teen-angst-alienation I might have felt then.

>That's how it worked for me at first, but (although I'm only 16) I think it's worn >off or softened by now. They don't make me feel great or "Wow, I'm not the only one!"

That's fine with me, Frank. I won't make fun of you for not feeling that way.

>I think >alienation goes deeper than anything Rush can fix.

That's very true, but having something to identify with when one is alienated can certainly help.

- John

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: maxx2112@aol.com (Maxx2112)
Date: 14 Jul 1997 01:53:20 GMT

FC asks:

>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

That?s an interesting question, and I?m not sure I can answer it, but I?ll try.

First of all, in any real sense, Rush has *not* touched my life. I?ve met Geddy in passing, but I can?t say I know him, nor do I know his bandmates, and they don?t know me. They?re craftsmen and artisans who create a product that I happen to like. The only real relationship between us is that of vendor and customer. As with the merchant down the street, if the time comes when their product doesn?t meet my expectations, I will cease to be a patron. They are not my friends, and they are not close to me (I would, however, love to be Neil?s neighbor because I know he?d leave me alone). For someone to touch my life in any meaningful way, they would have to be close to me. Our relationship must be based on something greater than art and commerce.

Many musicians have a deep appreciation of their music because of its complexity and construction or because of the skillful way it?s performed. I?m not a player, and don?t enjoy their music on this deep level. I truly enjoy Rush?s sound, but the things that would make a talented player?s eyes pop out are lost on me. There are times, however, when their music seems to stir something in me. I?m not sure why that is. Steven may have come up with the reason when he said Rush can be reminiscent of the music of the Romantic period. I?ve always found the music Tchaikovsky and his contemporaries quite moving. But it?s not the music that attracts me to Rush.

No, I?m a fan because of the lyrics. I was introduced to Rush in the late seventies when I was in my early teens. At that time, rock music seemed to be exclusively about sex and drugs. The most popular music, disco, truly wallowed in hedonism. Music was full of images of fast and easy living. Everyone seemed to be living some great, wild life . . . except me. Being a teenager is bad enough without being bombarded with messages about how great everyone else?s life is and how your life sucks in comparison.

Rush was different. Their songs had grander themes and uplifting messages. They sang about doing useful and productive things, not about wallowing in self-pity or looking for hand-outs. They sang about balancing our thinking and feeling parts. They took themes from literature and cinema and turned them into wonderful songs. Granted, they did do "A Passage to Bangkok," but for the most part their songs were about more impressive things.

Growing up in south Louisiana, life was confusing. On one side, I had pop-culture presenting a hedonistic life style. One the other side, there were those trying to sell me a life of religious slavery. In the middle there was Peart saying think for yourself, man. Life is great ? go out and do wondrous things.

And 2112 introduced me to Ayn Rand. I don?t agree with 100% of her philosophy, but I like her writing and her depiction of man as a heroic being, living for himself first and foremost. It was a concept I had not heard before, and it?s one that I find more appealing than altruism.

So, how has Rush *touched* my life? They were the first to show me that there is something better out there, but I had to go out and find it, make something of my life, and live it on my own terms. At times I lose sight of that ideal, and the songs of Rush serve as inspiration to get on with my life and do what needs to be done. Rush is a motivational tool . . . one that rocks my ass off.

- Max -

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 19:06:13 GMT

maxx2112@aol.com (Maxx2112) wrote:

>FC asks:

>>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

>That?s an interesting question, and I?m not sure I can answer it, but >I?ll try. >No, I?m a fan because of the lyrics. I was introduced to Rush in the late >seventies when I was in my early teens. At that time, rock music seemed >to be exclusively about sex and drugs. The most popular music, disco, >truly wallowed in hedonism. Music was full of images of fast and easy >living. Everyone seemed to be living some great, wild life . . . except >me. Being a teenager is bad enough without being bombarded with messages >about how great everyone else?s life is and how your life sucks in >comparison.

Exactly. That's why Rush appealed to me at first, as well. But doesn't there come a point where you grow out of that stage of your life? Seems like many Rush fans don't...

I remember corresponding with some Canadian guy, and he told me how Rush was big with teens up in the Great White North, but really not popular to like after that age period. I think I know why!

>So, how has Rush *touched* my life? They were the first to show me that >there is something better out there, but I had to go out and find it, make >something of my life, and live it on my own terms. At times I lose sight >of that ideal, and the songs of Rush serve as inspiration to get on with >my life and do what needs to be done. Rush is a motivational tool . . . >one that rocks my ass off.

Thanks for your post. It's definitely one of the ones that's more realistic and less corny nonsense.

-FC

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: will.buttram@yale.edu (Will Buttram)
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:08:34 -0500

In article <5qc00c$ath$1@nw003.infi.net>, Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net> wrote:

> That's corny. I'm sorry, but I think that Rush is definitely NOT the > music to cry over. (That's what John Tesh is for. :) I mean, shit!--it's > *2112*! It ain't a song about a dead little boy! It ain't a song about a > wife with cancer! It's a song about some guy who finds a guitar, learns > it super-quickly, gets it smashed, then kills himself!

If you're not in touch with your feelings enough to know that there are more things that bring tears to your eyes than just sadness, then I don't see any point to further discussion. Not that that will stop us... :)

> What I'm cynical about is Rush fans' idea about love. If this is what you > feel love is all about, I feel sorry for you. Should a rock band be taken > that seriously? I find the fact that people look for all those things in > a rock band like Rush kinda...well, pathetic.

> My saying that true "love" doesn't exist in Rush's music does not mean I > think love doesn't exist. I'm just saying you cheapen love by ascribing it to something like a goddamn rock band!

Um, like above, you seem to have a rather narrow view of love, also. If this is what *you* feel love is all about, *I* feel sorry for you. I think everyone is capable of many types of love. I don't think that saying I love chocolate ice cream "cheapens" when I say I love my fiancee. In an earlier post you mentioned that you like starting "discussions" because they "get things done." Um... what?

> That it will. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the matter, I

> appreciate it.

Do you really? Your responses show that you don't *really* understand what everyone's saying. And I don't mean that because you don't agree; understanding what's being said about Rush and disagreeing is perfectly acceptable. Rush doesn't do it for most people I know, and that's cool.

It's clear from your posts, however, that you don't even understand what's being said. You understand the English, but when someone says "crying" or "love" you're not grapsing what they mean, their different facets of meaning. It's one thing to play devil's advocate, but this is getting a little silly. When people "discsuss" things, and yet don't understand what each other is saying, nothing "gets done."

-Will

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 18:55:12 GMT

will.buttram@yale.edu (Will Buttram) wrote:

>In article <5qc00c$ath$1@nw003.infi.net>, Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net> wrote:

>> That's corny. I'm sorry, but I think that Rush is definitely NOT the >> music to cry over. (That's what John Tesh is for. :) I mean, shit!--it's >> *2112*! It ain't a song about a dead little boy! It ain't a song about a >> wife with cancer! It's a song about some guy who finds a guitar, learns >> it super-quickly, gets it smashed, then kills himself!

> If you're not in touch with your feelings enough to know that there are >more things that bring tears to your eyes than just sadness, then I don't >see any point to further discussion. Not that that will stop us... :)

How far can we take this? "I'm sorry, but if you don't understand why I'm crying over this Chicago Bulls game, then I feel sorry for you!"

>> My saying that true "love" doesn't exist in Rush's music does not mean I >> think love doesn't exist. I'm just saying you cheapen love by ascribing >> it to something like a goddamn rock band!

> Um, like above, you seem to have a rather narrow view of love, also. If >this is what *you* feel love is all about, *I* feel sorry for you. I think >everyone is capable of many types of love. I don't think that saying I >love chocolate ice cream "cheapens" when I say I love my fiancee.

Oh, shit. What a flimsy tossing-about of the word "love." Saying you "love" chocolate ice cream makes me wonder if you're a fat forty-year-old woman.

> In an earlier post you mentioned that you like starting "discussions" >because they "get things done." Um... what?

If you're going to try to make me look bad, at least quote me properly. Bringing up hot topics get things done--it gets ideas across, etc. What does, "I LOVE BETWEEN THE WHEELS!" get done?

>> That it will. Thanks for posting your thoughts on the matter, I >> appreciate it.

> Do you really?

Yes.

> Your responses show that you don't *really* understand >what everyone's saying. And I don't mean that because you don't agree; >understanding what's being said about Rush and disagreeing is perfectly >acceptable. Rush doesn't do it for most people I know, and that's cool.

>It's clear from your posts, however, that you don't even understand what's >being said. You understand the English, but when someone says "crying" or >"love" you're not grapsing what they mean, their different facets of >meaning. It's one thing to play devil's advocate, but this is getting a >little silly. When people "discsuss" things, and yet don't understand what >each other is saying, nothing "gets done."

Shut up. You don't know what I do and don't understand, but maybe I *don't* understand--I can't understand just what your alienation felt like and how great it felt to have something to cling to....Love.

You're trying to make it sound like I'm not a member of your little Rush cult, like I just can't comprehend all the deep things it means to you. Guess what! The things you're describing exist only in your head, it's not some universal fact! Your reasons for liking Rush are personal. You try to make it sound like those feelings are simply beyond me. I love your holier-than-thou attitude.

-FC

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: "John A. & Marianne Sievers" <ytserush@sprintmail.com>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:42:44 -0700

Sghorwitz wrote:

> I've said it before in other Rush forums, but I think this is also why > many Rush fans are also Star Trek fans - they both contain the same > fundamentally optimistic and open view of human possibilities.

Star Trek Fan (Not Fanatic) I'm one of those people who laughs whenever I see Shatner.

> No one completely understands why > particular sequences of notes and chords generate the emotional responses > they do, but in some way, music makes emotions more real than mere words > or pictures. They do indeed touch the heart. Neil has said that he > really likes when fans describe Rush's music as the "soundtrack of their > lives." I'm sure he does. In many ways, that captures how Rush has > touched me.

Well put.

> And clearly I'm not alone. I will > never forget the Albany show this tour, with many, many hard-core fans > there, and hearing the whole place singing along to Red Barchetta, CTTH, > and all of 2112. Everyone was smiling and I know many who cried during > 2112. That's being touched.

Wasn't that GREAT? The performance comparitively sucked, but that was my first opener and you couldn't beat the atmosphere (Especially the pre-show meal in that pub/restaurant) I made it through every song but Resist. I broke the tissues out then. They didn't even give me time to recover It was Leave That Thing Alone/solo/Natural Science. I had to pick my jaw up off of the floor for the first few lines. I stared in disbelief. The Albany crowd was the best I've ever been involved with. I was touched.

> Long-time, serious Rush fans are used to ignoring the critics who call the > band pretentious etc.. We know what we like and we're proud of it. That > kind of public commitment to what one loves is out of step in the cynical, > detached 90s, where flitting from interest to interest in the flicker of > an MTV second is the way to go, but being out of step didn't stop Rush and > it won't stop Rush fans. The love-in shall continue!

> The Professor

You have to put this in the introduction to your book! Although I wouldn't use "love-in," I realize it a personal choice!

ytserush@sprintmail.com

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: Rich <richsim@ibm.net>
Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 23:44:08 -0500

> FC asks:

>How does Rush touch your lives?, that's what I'm dying to know.

Well Frank, you have gone and done it now! This thread will live forever.

I can not really put my finger on exactly how the music of Rush has changed my life but I can say that most of the people I know that are, or have been, Rush fans have an air about them. A more positive out look on life. This may be a cause and effect issue but I can not help but think the music has something to do with it.

I too was a stupid druged out teen in the late 70's I passed out one night and woke up in my late 20's

Looking back at my life ( I am 34 and a 21 year fan ) there have been a few times when things could have gotten really bad. I have made some really stupid choices in my life that have had disasterous and long lasting effects on the coarse my life has taken. I strongly believe that luck exsists and each person makes his own. If you have a possitive outlook on life and the things in it, that can only help. The problem with me is I did not see this until my path laid out in front of me. When I saw it I had to make the best of a situation that did not have to be. I have noticed that negative people seem to have "bad luck" and positive people seem to have "good luck". I work in what seems to others as a bad situation and people wonder "how in the world can you stay so up, so positive?" The only thing I can say is that you have to keep on thinking positive and the best will come.

I get this and more from their music may be because I am looking for it but it is there, I swear it is. I can not show it to you Frank, but it is there. some one has said that you are a teen, if that is true, I can understand were you are coming from. One day you will wake up and it will be ten years later and you will see what I mean. the reason I know this is because I had the same conversation with my brother-n-law when I was 17 and he was 32 except he was talking about CCR ond 3 Dog Night

Rich

ps for what it is worth I had a blast screwing up my life in those years when I was passed out!!!!!

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz)
Date: 15 Jul 1997 00:46:18 GMT

In article <5qdsmg$cf5$1@nw001.infi.net>, Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net> writes:

>How far can we take this? "I'm sorry, but if you don't understand why I'm >crying over this Chicago Bulls game, then I feel sorry for you!

Well Frank, as a matter of fact, I did cry a bit when my beloved (oops, there's that word again, dagnab it) Red Wings finally won the Cup this year. I was sitting in a bar with a few tears rolling down my face. Why?

Well here's a group of people who really wanted something and faced adversity and disappointment before getting it. What so odd about me vicariously experiencing their joy as I vicariously shared the journey that took them there? Watching people who I have some connection with achieve something they've worked hard their whole lives for sure does move me emotionally. Same sort of reaction I had when I watched Rush's induction into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. For the same sorts of reasons.

To a cynic like yourself, it's corniness. To me, it's genuine emotion. And I'm not ashamed of it.

The Professor

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 15 Jul 1997 03:14:32 GMT

sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz) wrote:

>In article <5qdsmg$cf5$1@nw001.infi.net>, Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net> >writes:

>>How far can we take this? "I'm sorry, but if you don't understand why >I'm >>crying over this Chicago Bulls game, then I feel sorry for you!

Oh Christ....You're glossing over so many things and making it sound so much more romantic than it is. They're a bunch of sweaty guys, just like every other group of sweaty guys in the NHL, who want to prove their the best and who want to get a bunch of money. Why don't you sit and cry about the *other* team who worked so hard and lost.

Maybe the key part of the anecdote is, "I was sitting in a bar..."

>What so odd about me >vicariously experiencing their joy as I vicariously shared the journey >that took them there? Watching people who I have some connection with >achieve something they've worked hard their whole lives for sure does move >me emotionally. Same sort of reaction I had when I watched Rush's >induction into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. For the same sorts of >reasons.

>To a cynic like yourself, it's corniness. To me, it's genuine emotion. >And I'm not ashamed of it.

It's not cynical to say it's foolish to cry over a hockey game. DOESN'T ANYONE ELSE AGREE WITH ME HERE? I can't be the only one to think it's corny and foolish to cry over something like that (unless your son is on the goddamn team!). The only people it should really matter that much to are the ones getting all the fucking cash and fame.

-FC

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Subject: Re: Cercle/how Rush touches us
From: "John A. & Marianne Sievers" <ytserush@sprintmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:39:38 -0700

Sghorwitz wrote:

> Well Frank, as a matter of fact, I did cry a bit when my beloved (oops, > there's that word again, dagnab it) Red Wings finally won the Cup this > year. I was sitting in a bar with a few tears rolling down my face. Why? > Well here's a group of people who really wanted something and faced > adversity and disappointment before getting it. What so odd about me > vicariously experiencing their joy as I vicariously shared the journey > that took them there? Watching people who I have some connection with > achieve something they've worked hard their whole lives for sure does move > me emotionally. Same sort of reaction I had when I watched Rush's > induction into the Canadian Music Hall of Fame. For the same sorts of > reasons.

> To a cynic like yourself, it's corniness. To me, it's genuine emotion. > And I'm not ashamed of it.

> The Professor

I cried in 1995 when the Devils won it all and when the Islanders were stockpiling in the early '80s How's Vlad? We don't get anything down here....

ytserush@sprintmail.com

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Subject: Re: Cecrle/how Rush touches us
From: sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz)
Date: 14 Jul 1997 15:22:41 GMT

FC writes: (my apologies for misspelling your last name when I changed the header!)

>>That's corny. I'm sorry, but I think that Rush is definitely NOT the music to cry over. (That's what John Tesh is for. :) I mean, shit!--it's *2112*! It ain't a song about a dead little boy! It ain't a song about a wife with cancer! It's a song about some guy who finds a guitar, learns it super-quickly, gets it smashed, then kills himself! <<

I don't think anyone is crying over the story laid out in the song. I think the song is merely a symbol of what the band and their music means to them, and often that particular song. I tried so hard not to say it in my original post because it sounds so condescending and I hated it when people did it to me when I was 18, but... give it a few years Frank and see whether your concept of what counts as love and what is meaningful isn't more expansive than it is now.

>>What I'm cynical about is Rush fans' idea about love. If this is what you feel love is all about, I feel sorry for you. Should a rock band be taken that seriously? I find the fact that people look for all those things in a rock band like Rush kinda...well, pathetic.<<

The phrase "look for" is a problem here. I didn't go "looking for" love when I first heard TSOR 17 years ago. I heard the music and I, like so many others have said, was "smitten." BTW, for those who mentioned it, Rush didn't lead me to Rand - I discovered them both around the same time, independently of each other. I came to Rand via libertarianism, rather than the more usual other way around.

I think it's more pathetic to go through life with not much more than cynicism and a modem. Finding someone or something to love is what makes life worth living in my book.

>>My saying that true "love" doesn't exist in Rush's music does not mean I think love doesn't exist. I'm just saying you cheapen love by ascribing it to something like a goddamn rock band! <<

As others have said, your conception of love is too single-minded here. Love comes in many forms (isn't that from "Speed of Love"? See how Neil just moles in and changes your neural structure? :) ). Loving Rush in no way cheapens my love for my wife and kids. They are different forms of love, both of which are important pieces in the fabric of my life.

It isn't that I'm saying "true love" exists in Rush's music. After all, they rarely write about love in the conventional sense. I am saying that their music *conveys* a love of life, a love of humankind, and a love of what we can accomplish that speaks to me in the music and the lyrics. They share my (what Rand called) "sense of life." When I hear the Al's solos in BTW or Mission or TCE (see Alex and I can agree on something!), they speak to me of all of those possibilities.

I'm groping again but... what music does is make an abstract thought emotionally concrete. When I hear those solos (or Tony Banks' keyboards in several Genesis songs, or Beethoven's 9th or the Rachmaninoff 2nd Piano Concerto or whatever), I *feel in my bones* the abstract thoughts of human achievement, of human love, of human glory, of human greatness. What could be more powerful or more *touching* than writing music that makes me feel as though something that abstract were achieved? Why should I feel embarrased about saying that I love music and musicians/composers who can do that for me?

BTW, thinking at the keyboard here, that's one reason I really like *Countdown* despite what many Rush fans say. Those two keyboard solos provide the emotional concreteness of the event the song describes. The upward (Tony Banks-like!) movement of those two solos parallel the human accomplishment that the lyrics are describing. Same for "Mission" come to think of it - although lyrically Mission is more abstract than Countdown.

Let me add, in conclusion (insert stock footage of old ladies applauding), that I've really enjoyed this thread and seeing what others have to say. Whatever else one can say Frank, you've started a great thread. Too bad you'd like to disown it! :)

The Professor

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Subject: Re: Cecrle/how Rush touches us
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 19:01:03 GMT

sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz) wrote:

>FC writes: (my apologies for misspelling your last name when I changed >the header!)

>I don't think anyone is crying over the story laid out in the song. I >think the song is merely a symbol of what the band and their music means >to them, and often that particular song. I tried so hard not to say it in >my original post because it sounds so condescending and I hated it when >people did it to me when I was 18, but... give it a few years Frank and >see whether your concept of what counts as love and what is meaningful >isn't more expansive than it is now.

I'm 16, and I've already been through a period where Rush's music meant a lot to me. That's when I was younger and knew a lot less about music and music groups in general. Now I've discovered other bands, other things. Seems to me many people here have been clinging to Rush as some sort of salvation from alienation for years. I guess I don't need Rush while many of you do.

>>>What I'm cynical about is Rush fans' idea about love. If this is what >you >feel love is all about, I feel sorry for you. Should a rock band be taken > >that seriously? I find the fact that people look for all those things in >a rock band like Rush kinda...well, pathetic.<<

>I think it's more pathetic to go through life with not much more than >cynicism and a modem. Finding someone or something to love is what makes >life worth living in my book.

Sure, I guess so. But what makes you think I love nothing?

>>>My saying that true "love" doesn't exist in Rush's music does not mean I > >think love doesn't exist. I'm just saying you cheapen love by ascribing >it to something like a goddamn rock band! <<

>As others have said, your conception of love is too single-minded here. >Love comes in many forms (isn't that from "Speed of Love"? See how Neil >just moles in and changes your neural structure? :) ). Loving Rush in no >way cheapens my love for my wife and kids. They are different forms of >love, both of which are important pieces in the fabric of my life.

Good point. The people who cry over it....I don't know what else to say. Can't you see my POV that this is sometimes pathetic?

>BTW, thinking at the keyboard here, that's one reason I really like >*Countdown* despite what many Rush fans say. Those two keyboard solos >provide the emotional concreteness of the event the song describes. The >upward (Tony Banks-like!) movement of those two solos parallel the human >accomplishment that the lyrics are describing. Same for "Mission" come to >think of it - although lyrically Mission is more abstract than Countdown.

Those are two of Rush's most moving, best songs.

>Let me add, in conclusion (insert stock footage of old ladies applauding), >that I've really enjoyed this thread and seeing what others have to say. >Whatever else one can say Frank, you've started a great thread. Too bad >you'd like to disown it! :)

Oh, no, I wouldn't like to disown it. What makes you think that? I post to get responses like these! I like to read about it and think about it all. "Right to the heart of the matter..." :)

-FC

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Subject: How/why Rush touches you.
From: Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 19:20:52 GMT

Thanks to all for posting their responses. It was interesting.

Here are some things I noticed:

Almost everyone (or everyone indeed?) liked Rush because they felt alienated and disgusted with things.
Almost everyone was a young teenage guy when they discovered Rush.
Almost everyone had nothing else to connect with when they began "loving" Rush.

I get some interesting impressions from these posts....It seems like a lot of the appeal is that Rush fans felt dorky and alienated before Rush, and Rush helped them out. Then they had something to cling to, and it's something they cling to till this day.

It seems like something you'd grow out of along with those teenage years--unless you still need the affirmation of Rush?

I'm not saying I've never felt alienated (*certainly* not), it's just that Rush can't help those feelings of alienation out. Rush makes some songs with complicated music and thoughtful lyrics. That doesn't make me feel like I'm not alone. Rush's stuff really isn't that deep. They're just writing some good jams and Peart's just writing his opinions down. Is it just me, or is alienation too powerful for some Rush songs to really help?

I'm reminded of teens obsessed with something like Dungeons and Dragons. They don't have much to do, they're different, and then all of a sudden--hey, here's something neat to devote yourself to. Not quite the same, I know, but still a lot more similar than many of you would like to admit.

Now I'm interested about what you'll all have to say about this post. Perhaps it's just my need/tendency/whatever to be alienated by everthing,

I don't know. :)

-FC

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Subject: Re: How/why Rush touches you.
From: John Caballero <ediblened@mail.utexas.edu>
Date: 14 Jul 1997 21:04:56 GMT

In article <5qdu6k$lst$1@nw001.infi.net> Cecrle, mcecrle@sbt.infi.net writes:

>-Almost everyone (or everyone indeed?) liked Rush because they felt > alienated and disgusted with things.

That's not why I initially got into Rush. I just liked the cool music and the science fictiony lyrics. But yeah, as I entered puberty, I was in a rebellious state of mind and since most people didn't like Rush, the fact that I _did_ made it all the more cool. Today kids stick things through their flesh to be different - I listened to Rush.

>-Almost everyone was a young teenage guy when they discovered Rush. > >-Almost everyone had nothing else to connect with when they began "loving" > Rush.

I'm not sure what you mean here. There were _lots_ of things I could've connected with. Rush just happened to be what I chose.

>I get some interesting impressions from these posts....It seems like a lot >of the appeal is that Rush fans felt dorky and alienated before Rush, and >Rush helped them out. Then they had something to cling to, and it's >something they cling to till this day.

The first part of that is somewhat true for me, I think. I don't cling to Rush like I used to...but I still like them. They're still my favorite band.

>It seems like something you'd grow out of along with those teenage >years--unless you still need the affirmation of Rush?

Why would you expect my appreciation for Rush to wane? I can see how it might if they hadn't changed over the years, but their themes have matured and deepened through time. They've grown. And what kind of affirmation do you think Rush provides me, Frank? And why is it important to you that I not get that affirmation (if indeed I need it)? Again, why does my level (or anyone else's for that matter) of appreciation for Rush bother you?

>I'm not saying I've never felt alienated (*certainly* not), it's just that >Rush can't help those feelings of alienation out.

And NO ONE is disparaging you for that, Frank. And yet those of us who have felt such an affinity for Rush have been the subject of your insults and mockery and disdain.

>Rush makes some songs >with complicated music and thoughtful lyrics. That doesn't make me feel >like I'm not alone.

That's fine. No one thinks any less of you for it.

>Rush's stuff really isn't that deep.

That it's not deep enough to reach you is also fine. It doesn't have to be. I'm not asking you, or expecting you, to understand how or why their stuff has reached me, I'm only asking that you exhibit the maturity to accept that, for whatever reasons, it has, and to have the decency to accept that fact without resorting to sarcasms and offhand remarks.

They're just >writing some good jams and Peart's just writing his opinions down. Is it >just me, or is alienation too powerful for some Rush songs to really help?

It's just you, but don't let it go to your head. :-)

>I'm reminded of teens obsessed with something like Dungeons and Dragons. >They don't have much to do, they're different, and then all of a >sudden--hey, here's something neat to devote yourself to. Not quite the >same, I know, but still a lot more similar than many of you would like to >admit.

No, I think that's a fair assessment of where I was at 17 years ago.

Though I've never really devoted myself to Rush, I certainly was obsessed with them and thought anyone who wasn't needed to "reevaluate" things. Luckily, I grew out of that need to put others down for not sharing in what I thought was my oh-so-rational point of view.

> Now I'm interested about what you'll all have to say about this post. >Perhaps it's just my need/tendency/whatever to be alienated by everthing, >I don't know. :)

>-FC

You seem like a smart guy, Frank. Here's to your mellowing in the years to come. *clink*

----------------------

John Caballero

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Subject: Re: How/why Rush touches you.
From: sghorwitz@aol.com (Sghorwitz)
Date: 15 Jul 1997 00:46:21 GMT

In article <5qdu6k$lst$1@nw001.infi.net>, Cecrle <mcecrle@sbt.infi.net> writes:

>Here are some things I noticed:

>-Almost everyone (or everyone indeed?) liked Rush because they felt > alienated and disgusted with things. >-Almost everyone was a young teenage guy when they discovered Rush.>-Almost everyone had nothing else to connect with when they began "loving" > Rush.

Well Frank, since my reply was first, I find it odd that none of these were true of me. I was 16 when I discovered them, I wasn't alienated or disgusted, and I had plenty else to connect with. What I was, I think, was, like many others, looking for music that was more challenging to listen to than most of what I heard on the radio. It was certainly a time when I was searching for new ideas and trying to understand the world around me, but that's not the same as alienated or disgusted. I'll admit to being a bit geeky, but that's all! :)

I'm hardly any of those things now, (well maybe still a bit geeky) yet I still consider them my favorite band. Again, that doesn't mean I don't love other bands, and other kinds of music, but Rush remains number one. That doesn't mean they are gods or flawless. They've written bad songs (just what were they thinking during "Neurotica"?) and bad albums (RTB comes to mind again here). But overall, their music moves me like no other.

The Professor